What happens when you combine a genuine desire for cooperation with a deep level of trust in the people you work with every day— even those that are across the ocean? You get ‘radical cooperation,’ and its benefits can transform you and your organization for the better.
Radical Cooperation (ft. Anita Castille & Michael Kahane)
The transformative power of deep trust and collaboration
GUEST BIOS:
Anita Castille:
Vice President of Human Resources for the AIDS Healthcare Foundation, responsible for both domestic and global regions.
Michael Kahane:
Southern Bureau Chief for the AIDS Healthcare Foundation, overseeing operations in the AHF’s largest bureau— incorporating the southern United States, Caribbean, and Latin America.
CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:
[6:25] -- Radical Cooperation
Where teamwork meets trust
Everyone has heard of cooperation. But radical cooperation takes cooperation to another level because it incorporates real trust. Where trust is, cooperation becomes more efficient, more seamless, and less problematic— because you know that when there’s a problem, the people in your organization have your back, no matter how large or widespread the organization may be.
[8:11] -- Building Trust Over Time
Why radical cooperation is a process, not an event
The trust that allows for maximum efficiency and effectiveness in an organization isn’t a matter of making a decision— it’s a continual commitment to grow relationships, build trust, and depend on one another in ways that can sometimes take us outside of our comfort zones. But while there is no endpoint, there is an ongoing promise of growth and exponential success.
[11:54] -- Shared Goals: The Foundations of Trust
Even when we disagree, a shared mission unites us
How do you build trust and cooperation? By developing a true belief that the people in your organization have the same end goal as you— to make your organization a success. When you can get to this place mentally, you can see any decision or opinion you disagree with through the prism of a difference of methodology, not ideology. Instead of thinking, ‘This person is trying to ruin this project,’ you start with, ‘This person wants the same thing I do, even though we disagree on the path to get there.’
[18:30] -- Tell the Whole Story
‘Trust’ and ‘Truth’ have shared roots
Anita shares the importance of telling both sides of a story when sharing your thoughts with a superior or team member. Be transparent, and you’ll ultimately be rewarded with the trust of everyone around you— your superiors, your employees, and your partners at every stage of the journey.
[28:21] -- Find Joy in Your Mission
Advice for prospective hires anywhere
A job is a job, but it can also be more than that. When you’re able to find true joy in the mission of the organization you call your career, you’ll be more fulfilled, more effective, and more willing to go the extra mile to generate successful outcomes.
RESOURCES:
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ABOUT AHFTER HOURS:
The AIDS Healthcare Foundation is the world’s largest HIV/AIDS service organization, operating in 45 countries globally. The mission? Providing cutting-edge medicine and advocacy for everyone, regardless of ability to pay.
The AHFter Hours podcast is an official podcast of the AIDS Healthcare Foundation, in which host Lauren Hogan is joined by experts in a range of fields to educate, inform, and inspire listeners on topics that go far beyond medical information to cover leadership, creativity, and success.
Learn more at: https://www.aidshealth.org
ABOUT THE HOST:
Lauren Hogan is the Communications Manager for the AIDS Healthcare Foundation and has been working in a series of roles with the Foundation since 2016. She’s passionate about increasing the public visibility of AIDS, the Foundation's critical work, and how everyday people can help join the fight to make cutting-edge medicine, treatment, and support available for anyone who needs it.
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In Detroit, history was made when Barry Gordy opened Motown Records back in 1960. More than just discovering great talent, Gordy built a systematic approach to launching superstars. His rigorous processes, technology, and development methods were the secret sauce behind legendary acts such as The Supremes, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross, and Michael Jackson.
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Lauren Hogan:
Get unfiltered lessons from our leaders at AHF, as we uncover real raw stories of where we came from and where we are going. Join us for an unscripted look at the connections our senior leadership have to our mission, core values, and hot initiatives. AHF is the world's largest HIV AIDS service organization operating in 45 countries globally, 16 states domestically, including DC and Puerto Rico. Our mission is to provide cutting-edge medicine and advocacy regardless of ability to pay.
Lauren Hogan:
Hello and welcome to the after hours podcast. I'm your host Lauren Hogan serving as your liaison to take you through this journey to learn more about AIDS Healthcare Foundation. First up, we're going to get into the topic of AHF unfiltered. Before we start the show, please make sure to remember to check out the show notes so you can follow along. Now let's get started. Hello everyone and welcome to through the after-hours podcast. I have to say I have my two most favorite guests so far with me today, Miss Anita Castille and Mr. Michael Kahane Welcome to the show you guys. Hey,
Michael Kahane:
Hey.
Anita Castille:
Thank you Lauren. This is great.
Lauren Hogan:
Yes. Really quickly let's just do some quick introductions so all of the listeners know who you guys are, so Anita will start with you.
Anita Castille:
Absolutely. Happy to be here. My name's Anita Castille. I am vice president of human resources for AIDS Healthcare Foundation, responsible for both domestic and global.
Michael Kahane:
Hey, I'm Mike Kahane. I am the southern bureau chief for AIDS Healthcare Foundation. I oversee our in the southern United States and also in the Caribbean and Latin America.
Anita Castille:
He's a little modest. Southern bureau is actually our largest bureau, so I'm going to go in and jump in. He oversees our largest bureau within the US in addition to the Caribbean and Latin America.
Michael Kahane:
Thank you, Miss Castille.
Lauren Hogan:
First question for you guys, what initially attracted you to join AHF?
Michael Kahane:
Anita?
Anita Castille:
I'll go. Okay. Actually I came from the private sector. I came from financial services. I got to the point where I really wanted to be with a company that was mission driven. In looking, AHF definitely believed in the mission, but also had the opportunity to expand my HR knowledge in a global market. I got to say, it's one of the best decisions I've made after eight years now.
Michael Kahane:
Yeah, so really the same story with me. I came from the private sector as well, and it was an opportunity to do something where I had the ability to make a difference I thought, and I didn't do that in my prior job. My prior job, my soul goal was to make shareholders wealthy like you do on Wall Street. It was an opportunity that made me feel like I could be part of an organization that's really responsible for change and really responsible for making a difference in so many people's lives across the world. I've been here 14 years now, and it was the best move I could have ever done, and I got to meet Anita and Lauren.
Anita Castille:
Ditto. Ditto.
Lauren Hogan:
What's made you guys stay at AHF for so long. Anita, you've been here for eight years, Mike, 14 years. Why have you guys stayed with this organization for so many years?
Michael Kahane:
Well, okay, so I'll jump in here. Because you get to work at a place that makes you feel like you've done something that made a difference in someone's life every single day. Those differences vary, whether it's in the big spectrum, helping someone who's impacted by HIV or AIDS live a better life, or find access to better healthcare, or if it's responding to a natural disaster, which we do throughout the world, or whether it's something on a more simple level, even the interactions that we have with our fellow coworkers. There's nowhere else that I've ever worked where I've had as many friends as I have coworkers within the workplace. That's something really special, I think in part, because we all share our desire and our cause to work for this mission. We all have a thread that binds us together, both in our work lives, but also in our personal lives as well.
Anita Castille:
I ditto everything Mike said, but in addition it's just the diversity. I mean, Mike talked about handling disasters, which there's a lot that goes on in southern bureau, Latin American, and the Caribbean, but we're in housing, we're in food and securities. I mean, there's not a job that I have had that I can be so diverse in what I do and the people I serve. It's all the affinity groups we have. It's amazing. To Mike's point, I mean, I've gotten the best friends since I've been here. I mean, Mike's a great example. He and I have become best friends just over working together, traveling together, talking, supporting each other, and it's all worth it.
Michael Kahane:
You made me think about this, Anita. I would also say the diversity within the workplace. I've never been blessed to work in an organization that is as diverse as AHF is. It makes me feel richer and more complete on a daily basis by just having the interactions that I'm able to have.
Lauren Hogan:
The key topic of this episode specifically is radical cooperation. I'm going to jump into it and ask you both in your perspectives what does radical cooperation mean?
Anita Castille:
I'm going to let Mike answer.
Michael Kahane:
Thank you for that, Anita. I appreciate that throw. I would say we all know what cooperation is, or hopefully we all know what cooperation is. Radical cooperation is taking it to the next level. Radical cooperation is being able to cooperate with people to a higher and more important level because there's trust. When you're talking about an organization like AHF that not only is geographically as large as it is, but also, like Anita was just talking about with the different business lines, has as much diversity in the operations that it does. The only way that we as a team are able to make things work well is by cooperating. But, when we're able to trust one another, and we're able to take that cooperation to the next level, it makes everything that we do more efficient, more seamless, less problematic, and knowing that if there's a problem or there's something that needs to be discussed that you and the person or people that you're speaking with trust one another to be honest and know that the discussions are really designed for a solution, not for blame, not for an ownership or really solution oriented.
Michael Kahane:
You can trust each other to have those discussions that get you to a better resolution. What would you say it is, Anita?
Anita Castille:
I agree with that but I think that really, our employees need to know, that are listening in that it doesn't happen overnight. I mean, we've started talking about radical cooperation over a year now within the senior management ranks. And it takes time to get to the point that Mike talks about with the trust. And we're a matrix organization, so it makes it even more challenging. So, it takes time. I think we're still trying to figure it out in some areas, although we've made great strides where we are today. But I don't want the employees out there to think, "Oh, all of a sudden, one day radical cooperation came in and now it's an organization." It's taken time to get to where we are today. But when you get there, it builds so... The relationships are so much better, which makes your work life so much better.
Michael Kahane:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's not something... There's no magic wand that makes it happen, and I don't think there's any endpoint either. It's something that you have to continue, continually work on. I mean, Anita and I are actually a great example. We didn't start out in the best place.
Anita Castille:
He loves to tell this story.
Speaker 1:
I do- [crosstalk 00:09:30]
Anita Castille:
He loves to tell this story. Tell the story, Mike. Tell a story. [crosstalk 00:09:32]
Speaker 1:
Because...
Michael Kahane:
So, we didn't necessarily start out in a bad place. But because Anita's in HR, because I'm in the business line, our first interaction had to do with an HR decision that I still maintain I was right on. But HR...
Anita Castille:
I think I was right.
Michael Kahane:
But in the end she was right, because it was her decision that we all had to live with. But the point is, even though we had a disagreement, we learned to trust each other and eventually to love each other enough that the disagreements didn't matter. It's the working relationship that matters.
Anita Castille:
Yeah, but I think that if we were in the place we are in today, that decision that was probably seven years ago or eight years ago, soon after I started, would've been different. Because sometimes you have to listen, and I don't think I listened as much back then. And sometimes you have to let your ego go. And you have to understand, because at that time, I wasn't even sure about what the structure was. If I understood the structure, it wasn't even my place to make the decision.
Michael Kahane:
Yeah.
Anita Castille:
Mike is just a great guy that... He's going to be like, "Okay, we could go this way. We go this way. Okay. I get it." But at the end of the day, what I know now, it wasn't even my place to make that decision. It was his place to make the decision. So I think we've grown to where we are.
Michael Kahane:
But I think you also hit on a really important point. This is a complex organization and no one is going to understand it overnight. It's really important that people be onboarded appropriately and ask questions as they go along, because the matrix model is difficult to understand. I don't think you and I had the same understanding of what it was at that point. We do now-
Anita Castille:
We do now.
Michael Kahane:
Because we've talked about it quite a lot.
Anita Castille:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Michael Kahane:
But it's a big organization and it's a complex organization.
Lauren Hogan:
So as a follow up to that, I want to ask you guys. In your individual perspectives, what do you think the most important element in creating and maintaining radical cooperation is?
Anita Castille:
Trust.
Speaker 1:
Trust.
Anita Castille:
I think that Mike and I work so well together is we because we trust each other. Like I know if he's going to bring me something, we don't always agree on situations within the workplace. But I trust that whatever he's bringing me is real and authentic. And I hope that he feels the same way. I mean, there's issues going on right now where we may have different perspectives. My perception may be different than his, but we have always been able to work it out. And at the end of the day, look at what's best for AHF in the organization.
Michael Kahane:
Totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah. I mean, when we have an issue, like Anita said, we may not agree on what the resolution is, but we trust one another enough that we can respect where the other person is coming from and we can agree to disagree. We don't take it personally, because we know whatever the ultimate decision is, it's being made in the best interest of the organization.
Lauren Hogan:
Yeah.
Anita Castille:
And it's tough being in HR too, because you try to make sure you have the balance. You try to make sure the Southern Bureau is working with DOM. DOM is working with the North. The North is working with PHD, keeping everything together. I mean, we have a HR Sits here in the North, I'm sorry in the South. And I know that those HR individuals here have a straight line to Mike, and a dotted line to me. But we don't even have to talk about it like that because anything I want to do, I talk to him about it. He talks to me, and we don't even have to talk about dot. It's straight. It's just that they report up to us and what's best for them in the organization. Everybody should have a relationship like us, Mike. That would just solve it all. That would just solve it.
Michael Kahane:
It would solve many issues, yes.
Lauren Hogan:
Well, one thing I will say that I think is another key term that we can add into this is transparency. You guys are very transparent individuals. You're honest. And you keep the line of communication open, which I don't think everybody has at their organization. So I think with you two incorporating that, it kind of makes AHF an even more special place because people can communicate with you guys in a transparent space. Would you agree?
Anita Castille:
Yeah, but I think not everybody does. Because I think, and I've told this to Mike before, because he's like, "Oh, why didn't they just talk to me?" Well sometimes when you just have a title, okay, you have a title. You are Bureau Chief for Southern Bureau. I am VP of HR. Some people look at that and be like, "Oh, can I really talk to Mike? Can I?" Yes. Anybody listening, you guys can talk to us. You could come directly to us. But I think that sometimes just when people see you have a certain title, they think, "Oh well, why didn't you talk to Mike about this?" "Oh, I didn't know I could talk to Mike about this." "Yeah, you can. You can. Really, you can."
Michael Kahane:
Yeah. I mean, that's a concept that I have difficulty with in all honesty, but I understand it. Because there are times when I realize that people might be intimidated, or shy, or apprehensive, or whatever about having a conversation with me. I don't see myself that way and I hope others don't. But certainly, I hope anyone listening to this understands that the entire management team of AHF is approachable and we want to hear from you. We learn from you, and you guys have the frontline experiences that are important to us. So please, please don't ever feel that way. But I also think that transparency, understanding transparency is something personal. I'm literally thinking to a conversation that Anita and I just had before coming into this room with some other people.
Michael Kahane:
And I voiced an opinion. And after the meeting, Anita said, "Why weren't you more transparent about that?" And I thought I was being transparent from the perspective I was coming from. But I can see from Anita's perspective, maybe there were others things that I should have said. So, transparency isn't a precise term either. We all have to work at it. But obviously, the better, the more transparent we can be in a friendly, nurturing, supportive way, the better the organization will be.
Speaker 2:
Wow.
Anita Castille:
And I say that when staff are having issues with their supervisor, or peer, or whatever, from an HR standpoint, of course, we always want to know about it. But there's too many times we hear about it when someone's leaving. And just all I would say is give us an opportunity to fix it. If it's something that really needs to be fixed now, I'm not going to say 100%, you bring something, it's always going to be fixed. But at least give us an opportunity because we value our employees. We value the work that's done by all of you. We know you're here for the mission and for the work that we do. So, give us an opportunity that we can... Be transparent enough with us so that we have an opportunity to try to fix it. That's what I would ask for the employees listening.
Lauren Hogan:
Then, if we're going to look at this from a radical operation lens, and similarly, we had an episode with [Endora 00:17:46], who gave us some advice on leadership and subordinate relationships, what advice would you guys give to listeners here today on how to approach you if they have a problem and how you guys would be receptive?
Michael Kahane:
Knock on my door, come on inside, call my phone number, send me a text, send me an email. I tell people all the time, I am here to assist in any way that I can. And if you have a question, a comment, or a concern that you think I can help you with, I'm here to help. And I think I speak for the entire senior management team when I say that. So, let us hear from you. It's important.
Anita Castille:
But I would add to that, tell the whole story. If you're coming, don't just tell one side. Tell it all because there has been... We're being transparent here today, where employees will come and I will... Because I do dig in. I dig in, and then, I found out there was a whole nother story over here that I did not know about. So, whether it's good or bad, it's okay. But still, I'm telling you, I'll be transparent with you, but I need you to be transparent in telling the whole story. And like Mike, email, texts. If you in Sunset, come by.
Anita Castille:
I'm just like Mike. I think one of the things that Mike and I have in common is that when we do travel together, pre-pandemic, that is, we're always the ones going to hang out. We're going to be the last ones. If we go out, then have a celebration with the team, we're going to be the last ones there with you guys. We're going to be the last ones hanging to try to talk to folks. So, I hope you guys feel comfortable with that. And if you don't, then there's something that we need to change.
Michael Kahane:
Yeah. But also, if you don't, hopefully, you feel that comfort with your manager or their manager. There's lots of people to talk to within this organization. And like I said, like Anita said, we all want you to be transparent. We want to hear from you. And we're here to help in any way that we can.
Lauren Hogan:
What does a matrix organization look like at AHF, from your different perspectives? Anita, you're in HR, Mike, you're directly linked to a variety of business lines. So, what does a matrix organization look like from your different perspectives?
Anita Castille:
Well, within AHF, we have, of course, matrix is you have different lines of supervision where you go to. The way that AHF has organized matrix organization is that if you're in a bureau, so if you reside in the southern bureau or you reside in the north, you have a solid line. Example, I have an HR person in New York. I have an HR person in Florida. The straight line is to the bureau, meaning southern or north. The dotted line is to the discipline. The discipline being HR in LA. Same for finance. The discipline is HR. So, that dotted line, I'm sorry, finance, that dotted line is to finance and corporate. Same with PHD. Same with DOM. We say this over and over. It gets lost in translation somewhere, but Mike, can you elaborate on the part I left off on, because that's kind of what I'm always explaining?
Michael Kahane:
No, I think you said it well. It's a complex organizational structure, and it's not easy to define. But in its basic essence, everyone belongs to a geography. Everybody resides somewhere. And most people also belong to a business line. The geography really is the entity that decides things like day-to-day operations, like if there are office issues, if there are operational issues, maybe even if there are staffing issues. The discipline, however, decides the specifics of that job. In other words, if you're a doctor or if you're an HIV tester in the southern bureau, your geography is the southern bureau, which reports up to the bureau itself. But I'm not a doctor. I don't have expertise in HIV testing. So, your business line would be PHD or department of medicine. And that's easy for people to understand. The gray area comes in the middle parts.
Michael Kahane:
And trust me, we're still trying to figure it out at the senior management level. But we're doing our best to try to give it as much clarity as we can. It's easy, also, to think of large organizations like Coca-Cola. They have a North American operation. And then, that North American operation might be broken down into states, and that might be broken down into cities. We're very similar to that. That doesn't mean that the state or the city has authority to change the recipe of Coca-Cola. That always has to be the same, but they make operational decisions within those geographies. Is that clear?
Anita Castille:
Yeah, I like it. I like it. I like it, but the thing is, is that, and it makes sense because if an HR person is not have a solid line here, they need to be embraced by the people that they see every day, that they come to work in. That's sort of their family there, and then they have this bigger family in LA, which is the HR people, but people, this is why they go to work every day. They need to feel part of that family, part of what's happening part of the advocacy there, part of what's going on every day, to just stay engaged. I just think it's key.
Michael Kahane:
Sure. Another way that I think about it that might maybe make sense is, let's just take a location at AHF. At any given location, there might be HIV testing. There might be linkage. There might be a healthcare center. There might be a pharmacy. All of those things exist to bring a patient into care. Every one of those disciplines has its own professional standards and operations that they do in order to test, in order to link, in order to provide medical care, in order to dispense pharmacy medication. The bond that holds them all together is the geography because they're all doing it together at the same place, and if everyone just operated in a silo of their individual business line, that bond that makes it so important for the patients wouldn't exist.
Anita Castille:
See, that's why I had to do this with Mike. He's so good.
Michael Kahane:
That just totally came to me.
Anita Castille:
That was so good. Yes. And that is why I am sitting here with Mike Kahane.
Lauren Hogan:
We're almost at time, but I've got last two questions for you. One, in you guys' perspectives again, what do you think a overall theme at AHF is? Is it one of our core values? Is it a campaign that we've run that you think is really at the core of what AHF is about?
Michael Kahane:
There's so many themes at AHF, but to me, everything-
Lauren Hogan:
What's your favorite one?
Michael Kahane:
Well, it's not my favorite one. I think every... I'm not saying it's not, not my favorite one. I'm just saying, I'm not saying this because it's my favorite one. I'm just saying it because this is making no sense, but let me start over the thing. The thing, the common core that runs through everything is cutting edge. Everything that we do is cutting edge, whether it's providing medical care, whether it's testing, whether it's disaster response, whether it's housing, whether it's affinity groups, we do things unlike the way they are commonly done, because we're trying to cut through red tape. We're trying to cut through barriers. We're trying to make more efficiencies. So, I would say cutting edge.
Anita Castille:
I think I'm probably the sister or brother to that. I'm going to say the theme is, fights for what's right, because whether it's drug pricing, housing, making sure Haiti has what they need, HIV education. Everything is about all of our advocacy work fighting for what's right. So, I think I would say, that's mine right there. It's a cousin to what you said, maybe not a brother or sister, a cousin to what you said.
Michael Kahane:
Well, they work together.
Anita Castille:
Yeah, exactly.
Lauren Hogan:
My last question for you guys is, because you guys are our senior leaders and you're a part of senior leadership or senior management, what advice do you guys give to the other employees or even potential or perspective employees that want to join this organization? Excuse me.
Anita Castille:
I really say the individuals that I see that have... I'm all into people enjoying what they do. For me, coming to work, going home, coming to work, going home, if that's what you enjoy, that's fine, but I think the more you are engaged, the more you are engaged in the work that AHF does, the more that you see the vision, that you see the mission, that you're not only engaged, but you bring friends, family, things like that. I think that, that's when you really get committed to the things that we do. That's not to say there's not going to be bumps in the road, but we already talked about transparency. We already talked about, let's talk about that, but I think engagement is key because there's so much work that we do.
Michael Kahane:
Yeah. That sums it up really well. The only thing I can add to that is, Lauren, you said about new and employees as well. I'd say get ready to make a difference, because when you join this organization, no matter what role you joined in, you're going to make a difference.
Lauren Hogan:
Well, between the two of your responses, I don't think that there's a better way to close this out. I want to say thank you both so much for coming onto the podcast. I think your perspectives and insight are phenomenal as always and I know our listeners will appreciate it.
Anita Castille:
Well, I want to say one last thing.
Lauren Hogan:
Oh, okay.
Anita Castille:
I want to thank Hans and Jen Grillo. Teresa for launching this and Lauren, I want to thank you for volunteering to MC. I think that this whole concept of podcast being able to reach our employee base, talk to our staff through this is wonderful, and I want to thank Mike because I would not have done this with anyone else but you.
Michael Kahane:
Aw.
Lauren Hogan:
We knew that. We knew that.
Michael Kahane:
I want to thank y'all, too. Thanks so much, and thanks everyone for listening, for being a part of this, and for being a part of AHF.
Lauren Hogan:
Thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the show, please subscribe, share it with your friends, like, post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. Follow us on Instagram at afterhours and see you next time.